To me that is faithless and backwards, KFC. I don't believe someone can have a relationship with God and be ignorant of the state of their soul. I also don't believe that you have to be free from sin in order to have a relationship with God.

So, there's really no reason for you to go around and condemn other people's sin, is there. That's God's job in terms of your theology. You say yourself that freedom from sin and good works doesn't translate to a relationship with God. So they could take your advice and give it all up, and without God it would amount to nothing.

BUT, if they seek a relationship with God, then, as you say, the holy spirit would compel them to live in the way God wants, right? I don't understand how according to your doctrine you would ever want to preach 90% law, when in reality the cleanliness of their soul isn't a necessity for salvation, and not even a benefit without it.

So, if you truly believe in God's guidance, wouldn't the point be to get them acquainted with God, and then let God deal with it?

I agree with your first statement but not the second. I can give you lots on the second. We're not totally without sin in our life and I would agree with that. But God cannot and will not have a relationship with us if we are living in a sinful lifestyle. Sin separates us from God. It gets in the way of our relationship. Look at Christ on the cross. He cried out because he felt the sin of the world he had taken on separated him from his father. He felt it. We do too.




depends on your definition of condemn is. I mean we need to show them how sin is hurting them and how it hurts their relationship with God. But we need to do so without malice or hypocricy. That's what Matt 7:1-5 means that you so like to quote.

Two people living together committing sexual sin and going to church need to know what God says about this. Most of the time they are just ignorant of God's ways. We've seen this before. Do we not tell them? Do we just let them continue? Is this a good witness for the world or others in the church? We are supposed to be salt and light. We see an example in scripture where Priscilla takes Appollos aside in Acts to corrects him privately. He was in error, corrected himself and went on to preach the truth. That's what we are supposed to do. Not just let them continue in error.

We don't seem to have a hard time doing this in a job, or regarding family issues but when it comes to spiritual issues it's hands off. Why? My guess? The Matt 7:1 mantra that's being twisted into something it was never meant to be. So let them continue in error. Who do you think is behind that?



none of us is free from sin. We are cleansed from sin. God takes it and throws it out and we are good as new. But we just go back and get tainted again. We walk in a sinful world. We can't help but get sin on us. When Jesus washed the feet of his disciples he said "He who has had a bath (born again means immersion) needs only to wash his feet, his whole body is clean. And you are clean, through not every one of you (Judas)." What he was saying was when we come to God in the first place he cleanses us by immersion but from time to time walking in a sinful world we need to come back and just clean our feet by confessing our sins. Judas just had his feet clean but his heart was black with sin.



For the most part, yes but not totally. New believers need guidance from others in the church. We are the hands and feet of Christ. We are the body. New Christians are a very big target for Satan. He likes to go after the babies (spiritual). I usually warn them about this first thing. Be alert. Be watchful. It's like they have this big bullseye on their back. Just like we don't leave newborn babies to themselves we don't leave newborn babes in Christ alone either. They need to be fed and discipled.

That's one of the purposes of the church and why it was set up in the first place. First to worship God, and second to edify and encourage one another. To hold each other up. The outside world isn't going to do it.

The same conflicted doublespeak we always get. I'm sorry, but it makes me angry. We hear that God loves us, warts and all, and that we need only come to Him, but then when the argument is about sin we're told we'd better clean up our messes or God won't have anything to do with us.

That kind of hypocritical crap smears God, and portrays God in such a way that people don't want anything to do with Him. It is transferring our own hypocrisy to Him, and I consider it blaspheme, no different than claiming He'd kill for his "Glory". I'm so sick of these anthropomorphic gods that aren't even up to human standards.

We are told that our spiritual cleanliness doesn't get us closer to God, that Gandhi is probably burning in Hell because he didn't accept Jesus as his Savior. We are told that we are sinful creatures that without God can't cast off our sins. Then we are told we'd better cast off our sins so that we can get close to God.

What a pathetic, weak god that would need people pointing fingers at each other in order to facilitate communication. I don't believe God is like that at all, and all we do when we pretend it is our job to clean up other people's lives is play the part of God. We have 2000 years of a church who has tried its best to BECOME God, and now we're so steeped in its doctrines that we, ourselves, don't believe God can do anything without our holier-than-thou crap.

I'll say it again. I don't believe you can have a close relationship with God and live counter to His designs without KNOWING you are doing so. I don't worship a god that is too weak to get his message out without nosy people carrying it for him. If someone is living in a way that I don't believe to be correct, then that's God's job to tell them, and my only concern is offering the idea that they should draw close enough and listen.

you're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about when we first come to him all dirty. Yes, he accepts us covered in sin and all. We don't come to him all cleaned up. We're a mess usually. He cleans us up but we have to be willing to let go of it. A great example is the Prodigal Son. He was already in the family. He was out of fellowship with his father (God) while he lived it up out in the world. (a picture of a sinning Christian). He found himself deep in sin and wallowing in mud eating next to the pigs. He realized how far gone and away from God he was, and he went back willing to give his sin up for his relationship with his father.

We see this in the gospels with Jesus. The sinners knew they were sinners. The adulteresses, the tax collectors, the thief on the cross, etc. The key? It was repentence. We can't say, I'm going to keep on sinning with a high fist to God and expect to have a relationship with him. After we come to him, our gratefulness should dictate our continued effort in leaving our sin behind for the sake of our relationship with God. Our sin hurts him. Jesus would say, "now go and sin no more." David was called a man after God's heart yet he did grievious sin. When he was thick in sin his relationship with God suffered. But it was his repentent heart that God loved.

The key is repentence. We can sin 70X and God will forgive us 70X or whatever it takes. It all comes down to the attitude of the heart. Why are we doing what we're doing? Because we're weak? Or because we could care less? Motivation plays a big key. God says many times in scripture. I will not hear you when you cry out to me. He knows who is genuine and who sins because they want their own way and have pushed God away. Many put God on a shelf that says "Open in case of emergency." He's got their number.



so God is just going to come down and speak verbally to them? You sit by and watch them sin knowing how it will hurt them? If God has placed you in their lives, you have a responsibility so says God to reach out to them, if they are willing to listen.

Sometimes his word will touch their heart. Sometimes their circumstance will draw them back to Him. Other times it's thru the voice of one that cares. Sometimes it's the voice of one that doesn't care but they hear God even then thru this. I am in no way advocating hitting anyone over the head with their sin Baker. God has to soften the heart first before any of us can really talk to them and have them listen. But if God places us in a position to help and we do not, we commit sin.

Ezek wrote about this...Chap 3:17-21 He was told by God to warn Israel of the impending danger because of their sin. "I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel therefore hear the word at my mouth and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked you shall surely die, and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his sin but his blood will I require at your hand. Yet if you warn the wicked and he turns not from his wickedness nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity but you have have delivered your soul."

It goes on but basically Ezekiel was responsible for warning each of the four kinds of people mentioned in these verses but each individual was personally responsible for his response to the warning. God had even told Ezek prior they wouldn't listen (v7) but he was to be obedient and warn them anyway. See that way they couldn't say...but we were never told. Ezek as a prophet to the Nation Israel as were the other prophets were mouthpieces for God.

Paul also speaks of this in Acts 20:26. "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore to yourselves and to the flock over which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers to feed the church of God which he has purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. Therfore watch and remember that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

As Christians, we too are called to warn and tell others of impending danger. It's not easy but it's what God has called us to do. But we have to be careful. It must be in the spirit of truth and love. It's not to be with a prideful arrogant manner. That's what you, I believe are thinking...ie Westboro Baptist Church. I'm not advocating that route.

And Jesus told someone to sell all they had. Do you advise people to do that, too? Acts is recounting Paul talking to particular people. A mortal man's words to other mortal men. Paul often talked in the epistles about how to manage churches, do you believe it was always a sly way to instruct us all in our private lives?

When Paul told the Corinthians that women shouldn't speak in the church, is that a mandate to all of us? That's the problem with taking Paul's words as universal mandates from God. They were never meant to be letters to all of mankind throughout history, they were letters to particular people, in particular places at particular times.

The part you quote is even less, because Paul was speaking to a particular room full of people. It works for you because it says what you want it to say, but Paul was not talking to you. Even if you DO believe he meant for it to be read now, he was still talking to the elders of the Ephesian church.

I personally don't believe there is anything that I can say that is better than God would say it to the person themselves. I believe God has the will to help people, and the voice to speak to them if they want to listen. If you think God just doesn't bother, well, again, we don't worship the same God.

If you think that God requires mediators or spokespeople, then, well, you didn't fall far from Lula's tree.

I'm not going to get into theological wars with all of you because frankly, I'll lose. But here's my take on the homosexuality thing. And to tell you the truth, it's changed a LOT in the past few years as I've grown and my relationship with God (I'm a Christian) has grown and changed.

The Bible certainly says that homosexuality is wrong and that it's not "normal" as you ask as your key question. But as a Christian, I don't think its my job to judge gay people, I think it's my job to love them. I don't think I'm supposed to be like "OH MY GOD YOU'RE GAY! THAT'S SO WRONG AND YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" because that's not really my decision.

Like Baker has said, I think its our job as Christians to bring people who don't know God to Him, and then He'll do the rest. Who am I to say "That's not right. Don't do it anymore or God will smite you?" unless it's someone who's hurting their family or something like that? Then I probably wouldn't have a problem saying it.

I'm babbling...but...yeah.

well you have to look at why Jesus asked the question. He knew that material possessions were in the way, inbetween him and the rich young ruler. He hit him between the eyes. If we have something that gets between us and God, yes, we need to get rid of it. Whatever it is.



Yes. Again why did Paul say that? What Paul was saying was God put men in the leadership role to not only rule their homes but also the churches. Paul later in the Pastoral Epistles outlined the qualifications for Pastors and one is they had to be male. There were reasons for this.



I disagree but you already know this, I'm sure. Paul spoke to the early churches and alot of it was for conduct in and out of church.



no God only sent one mediator. We know who that is. But Jesus himself left 12 in charge to do his work. They in turn made more disciples, and so on. As God before used Prophets to warn the Hebrews today he uses us to tell others.



I agree. I had a guy uncle (now deceased). I never judged or was mean to him and would have never lectured him. He wasn't interested in the gospel so I left it at that. The only time I would even broach a subject like this myself would be if that person was interested in Christ and wanted to be a Christian. It then would be something I would discuss with them but only then.



yes, and one of the things you'd have to do is tell them......the truth. You just don't hand them a bible and say, here ya go. Hope you read it. It's got stuff in there you need to read. Like I said, a new Christian is like a baby. They need help.

When Philip met the Eunuch in Acts 8, the Eunuch was trying to understand but couldn't. He said....."How can I,, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip come up and sit with him."

Right then and there Philip discipled him. God didn't just boom down from heaven the answers. He used Philip. In fact, Philip just happened to find himself in that place miraculously. In the whole episode the HS was present, but Philip was the vessel God used. God also puts us in places and we, as his vessels, should be willing to be used by God. If not, he'll use somebody else. But if a person needs to hear from God, yes God will make sure of it, whether it be thru us or not.

And you have to look at why Paul was saying what he was saying to PARTICULAR PEOPLE, not all mankind until the end of time.



He said it to particular churches who were having particular problems with pagan worship and the behavior of their priestesses that was being adopted by those churches. Granted, it's been convenient down through the ages to use his narrow advice to bolster broad, usually questionable social norms that have nothing to do with God.



The average estimate of the population of the Earth when Jesus was alive is something like 300 million people. That's 12 men... and 300 million people. Most of which lived in places that the apostles didn't even know existed.

You really think that God would hang the souls of 300 million people on an impossible task given to 12 men? That's a pretty Deist attitude, isn't it? The watchmaker hands the instructions to twelve men and then leaves it to them to get the word out?



And there's no doubt of how awful a parent God is in your book.



It's nice to think of God "using" us, because it makes us the hand of God. It makes us something more than the mud we are. Heck, when you add that to the idea that God can murder and such, wow, that leaves us in the position to do a lot of unsavory things, doesn't it?

Actually I was wrong...it was really 11 men...Judas was dead by then.

But when the HS came (the birth of the church)during Pentecost there was 120 in the room waiting. By the end of the day after Peter's first sermon, 3000 came to Christ. So on the birthday of the church there was 3120. And it went on from there. The next day or so another 5,000 was added to the church.

So don't forget to add these figures to your numbers.

So the answer to your question is no. And you know I'm not a deist.

Then go to Acts 19:10 and you'll see this: and this continued by the space of two years so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

I'm actually studying this right now. Paul was in Ephesus for 3 years. If you look at a map or look at history you'd see that this was quite the center of activity. This area right on the coast and was a commercial, political and religious center with the great temple of Artemis (Diana) there. This was a major trading center and ranked with Alexandria and Antioch. So the gospel was spreading like wildfire and going inland to Colosse and Laodicia. Again the HS was moving and moving fast. God was doing the work, but he was using his people to do it for him.



hmmmmm that's just nasty.



you're on a roll now.

Homosexuality isn't normal. But so what? It certainly doesn't hurt anyone. Saying it's immoral because the bible says so only means something to other bible people and is meaningless to those who don't define morality based on a religious document.

 

And 1000 years later the majority of the world still hadn't heard about Jesus. I know that it is easy to dismiss the Chinese, South Americans, etc., but they have souls, too, right? It seems odd that men were given the duty of spreading the message and not given the means to disperse it in any way that could ensure a wide dispersal.

I agree. And for those same people who believe it's true they can't go against it. Like Luther said in 1517,

"Unless I am convinced by proofs from Scriptures or by plain and clear reasons and arguments, I can and will not retract, for it is neither safe nor wise to do anything against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen."




yes they do.



we've been over this before, about the people that have never heard the gospel. Let's just say, that all God wants to save, will be saved. He knows who his people are and who have the desire to follow him. Those he wants reached will be reached.

Harsh. I guess God doesn't love all those people after all, huh?

Thank God I don't agree with you that those who don't accept Jesus in this life are screwed.

so where does that leave you with the words of Christ? How do you interpret his words when he says he is the only way to God the Father? He said it alot so it's not to be misunderstood.

The Phelps folks have their own little take on that too.